Bugs and Music and Music and Bugs
A chat with No Joy mastermind Jasamine White-Gluz about her stellar new record 'Bugland' and the tiny friends who inspired it
A couple weeks ago, we asked our friends for a song that sums up their music taste, and I wrote about the most Elliott-core song. Well, there is no artist more Elliott-core than No Joy. The melodies, tones, riffs and atmosphere that Jasamine White-Gluz and her collaborators cook up feel like they were designed in a lab to appeal to me. The songs have a direct path to my heart and I’m unable to sit still when I listen to them. Their 2020 album Motherhood is one of my favorite albums ever. No work of art was more responsible for helping me stay sane during the pandemic. I’ve followed No Joy’s sonic evolution for the past 10+ years, and their music gets more thrilling and playful with each release. I had the pleasure of chatting with No Joy mastermind White-Gluz about her stellar new LP Bugland, a record with endless ideas and pleasures to discover.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Even Better: Before we get to the music, let’s talk bugs! How long have you been obsessed with bugs?
Jasamine: I’ve always been pretty nature/animal/creature adjacent, or had an affinity for them. It’s only in the last couple years where I moved somewhere more rural and there’s just a lot of bugs around. I stopped getting surprised when I encountereed bugs. Like today, well, it’s kinda gross, but I found an earwig in my sock, and it’s like, “okay cool!” So it’s in these last couple years where I co-exist and love them, but I’ve always loved creatures of all kinds. I tend to say I like animals more than people. So I guess that goes for bugs too. I like bugs more than people sometimes.
Even Better: That’s deeply understandable. I’m curious about your process of creating song structure. On your previous record Motherhood, with a song like “Four,” you definitely pushed outside of the verse-chorus, verse-chorus typical song structure. And then on Bugland, I don’t know if there’s a song that follows that typical structure. Was that a conscious decision going into making the record or is that just more how you work now?
Jasamine: I don’t know who coined this, probably somebody very famous, that said “when you think you wrote the chorus, make that the verse." So the verse is there, but then you gotta find something even better to be the chorus. I feel like that’s sometimes in the back of my mind, where if I write something good, I gotta do something even better for the main part of the song. A lot of it too is that I was working with Fire-Toolz and we were patching parts of songs together and that ends up being a little less linear and little more fluid. And you’re trying to make everything fit in one song. That definitely was the case on Motherhood too where you’re trying to jam-pack it all in and that definitely carried into Bugland as well.
Even Better: How was it working with Fire-Toolz and how was it different from your previous records?
Jasamine: Amazing. I had heard her music and it’s so crazy, but so hooky and catchy at the same time. And it didn’t make sense to me. How could it be so mathy and weird but also so poppy? So I reached out and asked “do you want to work on a song?” The first song we did was “Bugland” and it came together so quickly. So after that it was like, “alright we should do a whole record.” And we strangely have very similar taste in music and appreciation for the same things. We ended up working from our home studios and it came together quickly from that. For somebody I hadn’t met before it was strangely really natural.
Even Better: I didn’t realize the two of you hadn’t even met.
Jasamine: Yeah, she’s so great. Whenever I collaborate I don’t like to tell someone what to do, I’m more “do what you do, with me.” And sometimes I say “do what you do, but crazier. Go nuts.” So when you tell somebody like Angel who is so musically talented and production savvy to go crazy, she really does.
Even Better: I’m curious about your process of sequencing an album. Getting into a few of the tracks: it’s hard to imagine “Garbage Dream House” being anything but an album opener. And same thing goes for “Jelly Meadow Bright” as a closing statement. When you’re making these songs, how much thought is being put into where they’ll fit on an album?
Jasamine: I don’t put a lot of thought into tracklisting because when I do records, I’m not assuming every song is going to make the final cut. So I’m recording a bunch and it’s picking and choosing what makes it on the record. Sometimes it’s everything, sometimes it’s just a couple. But you have a gut feeling sometimes and you just kinda know where it should fit on the album. Like “Jelly Meadow Bright” it was kind of obvious where it should land. I did try listening to it in different ways, putting all the tracks in different places, and “Jelly” actually sounded pretty cool in the middle. But to me, as a musical statement, it made more sense to be the end.
And “Garbage Dream House” is very “band,” very live sounding. I feel like it’s a nice way to reintroduce the project on the record, and then spin it on its head. Like, here’s a shoegaze song to start, but it’s gonna be something a little bit different.
Even Better: Yeah it starts with that shoegaze which does feel pretty familiar, but then about half way through come the heavier guitars. I know about your love for Deftones and Korn, and I can definitely hear (Stephen) Carpenter, Head, and Munky in there. What was it like bringing in some of the heavier guitars for Bugland?
Jasamine: I mean, sometimes I just get bored of tuning. So I’ll be like “oh we’ve done so much Drop D, what’s Drop B about?” A big part of it, especially on a song like “Garbage Dream House” was having Tara McLeod on the record again. She’s in the band Kittie and they were back together, writing and recording, so she was already in a full-on creative mode. The new Kittie record is amazing and so again, collaborating with someone and just saying “do what you do, and go crazy,” she’s got it. She’s got the Nu tones down pat, so there’s a lot of her influence on there too.
Even Better: Do you know what the deepest tuning was on the record? Did you get to standard A like Korn on there?
Jasamine: I don’t know exactly, but I feel like there were some freaky tunings. There was drop B for sure, but then we pitched stuff and mixed it and changed it all to sound different, so tough to say exactly. Definitely C and B, there might’ve been A.
Even Better: On the topic of music that I know you like, I know you’re a fan of U2, or, at least some of their music. I was telling my buddy Shawn who I run this blog with,“If Motherhood is No Joy’s Achtung Baby, I think Bugland is their Zooropa.” How accurate or off-base does that feel?
That’s nuts. That’s nuts you said that because Zooropa was 100% an influence on it. I don’t always take a musical influence and say “I wanna make a song like ‘Numb,’”. But in the sense that Zooropa was where U2 went bigger anthemically and live [with] Zoo TV. They were like the biggest band in the world and then they tried to make some fucking weird songs with strange production choices and artwork that’s so anti-marketing. And they let The Edge do a lot more tweaking around with stuff.
I also have a CD player in my car and I got the Zooropa CD at a thrift store. I was playing it in the car a ton. And it’s just so fucking weird for a big band to make a record like that after making Achtung Baby, with all radio hits and establishing yourself as the biggest rock band in the world. And then you come back and make a record that’s so strange like Zooropa. It was definitely an influence for sure, so very good ears on your part.
Even Better: There’s so many little nuggets throughout Bugland that you may not catch until your 5th, or even 10th listen. Do you have any favorites we should look out for - be it a riff, a synth, a noise?
Jasamine: There’s a lot of little things there especially because I was producing stuff at home and Angel was producing stuff at her home. And we were each throwing in little easter eggs, so there’s stuff from her side where I’ll listen to one of the songs and still be like “wait, what was that?!” and Angel will say “that’s right, I threw that in!” And I’ll go, “what the! I didn’t know that!” She sampled some crazy stuff, and I have some spoken word in there that’s pretty funny.
The process of the record was done in so many stages. Like, we went to a studio to record some drums with some friends and some were done at home, so there’s just so many parts to it that at this stage, I’ve maybe forgotten all the little treats that I’ve left in there. But I do know that I was playing around with, in terms of lyrics, throwbacks to other No Joy songs and other songs on the album, making a thread to tie things together.
Even Better: For the album cover, did you always know you wanted a snail on it? Were other bugs considered? Were there bug auditions?
Jasamine: *Laughs* There honestly were. So my friend Mathieu Fortin, who is mostly based in Paris, he was in town last summer. Mathieu shot the Motherhood cover as well. For the Bugland artwork, I was thinking about taking bugs from my home, but then I didn’t want to displace any bugs. So I found an educator that brings bugs to school and teaches people about insects. He brought me the whole lot — we had snails, spiders, praying mantis, stick bugs, cockroaches, and most of those guys are in the album artwork and liner notes. But the snail, that was actually the last shot we did. We set up in Matt’s house and used zero AI. We made the backdrops off of photos, we got flowers and made a whole set design. That snail photo was the final photo we took and right away it was like “alright, we know that’s the cover for sure.” It’s like when you’re doing a track list, and you just know when something feels right.
I originally didn’t think there should be a bug on the cover. I didn’t want it to be too “buggy” because it’s also about the land and this whole world, not just bugs. But then they stole the show and I couldn’t fight it. So the snail gets the cover.
Even Better: I’m so glad I asked that question to learn that there legit were bug auditions.
Jasamine: Oh yeah. Like the stick bug was the most diva. She wouldn’t really perform. We’d try stuff but she was not really feeling it. The spider was the best, a Tarantula actually, who was the guy’s pet. So she was really used to people and she was a star.
Even Better: Your music has always been very cinematic to me. Have you ever been interested in scoring a film?
Jasamine: Oh yeah, I would love to. I associate scoring with knowing how to compose and I don’t really know that. But that would be amazing, because I find that I work very visually. Things that are inspiring to me to create sounds can be like a plant or a bug, whatever it is to inspire me to create something sonic so scoring a movie or a show would be amazing, if it ever happened.
Even Better: I mean, there’s yet to be A Bug’s Life 2, so…
Jasamine: I think we just did it. I think we just made the sequel with Bugland. Hello?
Even Better: Yeah hello… you already made it!
Jasamine: Take that Randy Newman!
Even Better: What you’re describing about being inspired visually has me curious: what else inspires you these days other than music (and bugs)?
Jasamine: I have different modes. So right now I’m in album mode. But when I’m in a writing mode, there’s always a sense of urgency but there’s no goal. I have an idea and I have to get it out. I don’t know what it is, I just have to do it and play around with it. The inspiration comes from different places. Lately, I’ve been paying more attention to details, whether it’s a detail on a leaf, or like, the shape of the leaf. So, if I took that leaf’s shape and made a sonic wave of that, what would it sound like? Things like that. And 99% of the time, it sounds like shit, but one time there will be an idea in there where you’re like “oh, okay!” And I keep all the ideas so I always have a collection of everything I’ve tried. I go back and listen and think “maybe I can expand on this now.” Inspiration changes all the time but it comes in waves and it comes with urgency.
Even Better: In 2021, the year after Motherhood, we got Can My Daughter See Me From Heaven, which is an orchestral EP that reworked the songs from Motherhood (plus a wonderful Deftones cover). I know we need to focus on the record that’s about to come out…but any chance we might get a similar follow-up for Bugland?
Jasamine: I’d love that. There’s so much going on in these songs that it would be fun to deconstruct them a little bit and hear them a different way. There will definitely be some kind of remix, whether it’s a dance remix, a string remix, a cappella…there will be something. I’m just not sure what yet.
Even Better: With these songs that are so elaborate, what does it look like to prepare to play some of them live?
Jasamine: It’s a lot (laughs). I never think about how it will be live. So when it’s time to prepare it’s like, “oh, how do we do this?” or “how do I play that?” or “do I play that live, or do you play that live?” It’s tough to break it down so I have to stop making sure it sounds like the album, and more a version of the song on the album. It’ll just be a bit of a different version. We have practice next week so we’ll see how that goes.
Even Better: Alright I’d love to end with a speed round if you’re up for it. I name every track from Bugland, you name a bug that captures its vibe.
Jasamine: Ooh, okay yeah. Let’s try it.
Even Better: Alright we’ll go in order. “Garbage Dream House”.
Jasamine: It’s not a bug, but it’s in the artwork, and I’m gonna say hermit crab. Because they leave their little house, they leave their shell and move on, they grow out of their garbage dream house and go on to the next one. It’s not a bug, but close enough.
Even Better: “Bugland”
Jasamine: I’m gonna say Snail. He’s on the cover. He’s the spokesperson right now. So we’re gonna say a big snail.
Even Better: “Bits”
Jasamine: I’ll say a sac spider’s egg where they have all the little babies. They’re like little bits. I’ve found a lot of those recently. So a sac spider and its family.
Even Better: “Save the Lobsters” is maybe a little obvious, even if not technically a bug.
Jasamine: We’ll count Lobster as an honorary bug.
Even Better: Bather in…wait no I’m missing one. Crud! “My Crud Princess”
Jasamine: Crud! It’s gotta be like a cockroach or something. Somebody that’s down in the dirt and gross. And then “Bather the Bloodcells,” since it has “Bloodcells” in the title, I’ll say mosquito. They’re chomping away like crazy right now. Little vampires.
Even Better: “I Hate That I Forget What You Look Like”
Jasamine: I’m gonna say firefly/lightning bug. They’re everywhere right now here and I see them in the day. And I forget what they look like. When I see them in the day, I’m like “that’s what you look like?” It’s like when you see somebody without their makeup on and it’s like “you look like that?” So I’m gonna say a firefly.
Even Better: And to close it out… “Jelly Meadow Bright”
Jasamine: In honor of the music video that we just shot for that song, where I got completely bitten by horseflies, I’m gonna say a horsefly.
Even Better: What are horsefly bites like?
Jasamine: Really bad! They chomp. It’s mosquito times 20. They take a bite out of you.
Even Better: Oh no!
Jasamine: Yeah they’re bad. They’re really bad. I mean, no bugs are bad. But on the scale of bugs that I love, they’re at the bottom.
You can stream Bugland everywhere on August 8th, and order it on digital or vinyl below.